Interview with Lama Lodru Rinpoche
Subject: Three Year Retreat
Lama Lodu Rinpoche: Your question requires a two-part answer: the people you met had been students of the Buddha/Dharma for many years. They had listened again and again to the teachings and over time through practice their experience was transformed from an intellectual understanding to a genuine understanding. So they view 3-year retreat as an opportunity to free themselves from suffering and realize perfect Buddhahood to benefit sentient beings. Faced with such an opportunity they experience great joy. Secondly, although many Americans have heard the same teachings and have even practiced what they've heard, their karmic relationship with 3-year retreat is not as strong. The people you met had some past-life con nection with 3-year retreat, had followed the lineage, had practiced -- and so all these habitual tendencies, this familiarity gave them the feeling of coming home rather than going to some tortuous place.
Q: The 3-year retreat is very prescribed, it is very precise -- could you please tell us the nature of this particular 3-year retreat you started in Mendocino County.
LLR: Actually, all 3-year retreats are essentially the same but each school has unique traditions, unique ways to transmit and practice. Our Mendocino retreat follows the tradition of the Shangpa/Kagyu lineage -- the lineage holder being his Holi ness Kalu Rinpoche. So we are following in his foot steps.
Q: What is the Shangpa/Kagyu lineage?
LLR: Shang is a region not far from Lhasa. The founder of this lineage practiced in that area. He built a big monastery there and gathered many accomplished students. So the lineage Shangpa/Kagyu comes from Shangpa, the region, and Kagyu which means oral tradition.
Q: Who was the founder of the Shangpa/Kagyu lineage?
LLR: The founder of the Shangpa/Kagyu lineage was the Tibetan great master Khungpo Naljor. Khungpo was his family name. Khung means magic bird. You see, an extraordinary bird laid eggs on the roof of a certain house. The eggs hatched -- five dif ferent young boys. Many generations later the great master Khungpo Naljor was born into the Khung family. This is the same family Milarepa and many other great yogis come from. Naljor means yogi. So Khungpo Naljor means yogi from magical bird family. Khungpo Naljor was a Bonpo, a practitioner of the White Bon religion. He completely accomplished the Bon teachings and became abbott of the Bon Monastery. Yet he wasn't satisfied with these accomplishments since the Bon religion did not come from the Bu ddha. So he began studying the Nygingma tradition of Buddhism and again became a well-known accomplished teacher. Although the Nygingma contained hidden spiritual treasure and he received great benefit, he concluded after some research that there was so mething unsatisfactory in continuing with this tradition, so he came to the Kagyupa practice. One day his Kagyupa master said, "Khungpo, you are equal to my realization." Khungpo Naljor's reaction was that since he, Khungpo Naljor, had no realization, h e needed to move on and look deeper. So having availed himself of all the Buddhist teachings in Tibet, he decided to travel to India, to Nepal, the birthplace of the Buddha where there were many great yogis and the teachings were alive. When he left Tibet for India he was already 50 years old. In India he studied with 150 different teachers. He learned the language; he studied with great care, and he practiced in accordance with the yogi tradition. Eventually he became a well-known yogi in India. Although he had 150 teachers, his root guru, his principle guru was Niguma, Wisdom Dakini, who received teachings directly from Vajradhara/Dorje Chang. Another female guru of Khungpo Naljor was Sukkasiddhi -- who also fully transformed the ripening Karmic body to Wisdom body and was a great accomplished Mahasiddha. He received teachings from the great Mahasiddhas, Rahula Gupta, and Maitrepa. Those four were his root gurus. Among them, however, Niguma, was the most im portant guru for him, for his realization. He lived in India for 50 years studying, learning, practicing. After 50 years he returned to Tibet to spread the Dharma. At that point he was 100 years old, and had almost 100,000 students who had accomplished true enlightenment. For seven generations from Niguma to Sangye T'npa these Shangpa/Kagyu teachings were "a whispered transmission" passed from one teacher to one perfect disciple. At the end of seven generations Sangye T'npa's disciple, Tsultrim Gompo, compiled the teachings into a text which is now available throughout the world. Whoever is connected karmically can receive them. And of course Tsultrim Gompo was an incarnation of Khungpo Naljor himself.
Q: Rinpoche, you worked very hard to create a 3-year retreat facility for 5 nuns and 5 monks, and yet people might question the benefit of only 5 men and 5 women practicing.
LLR: Now we only have 5 men and 5 women because these people are completely refined students who really want to practice, and really desire to do 3-year retreat. So, I thought since their desire is so strong, and if they will practice thoroughly and become truly accomplished, and deliver these teachings in the world, then even though the number is small they will create great benefit, beyond what I can accomplish by myself. I felt the future benefit outweighed the short-term sacrifices involved in creating the conditions for this 3-year retreat.
Q: What qualifies a person to enter 3-year retreat? Is it just a matter of requesting permission?
LLR: Well, if someone comes and just expresses the wish to participate I probably would not allow it since they do not know the teachings and the lineage, do not know me as a teacher, which could create many obstacles, confusion and misunderstanding. And also if I don't know them, don't understand them, I won't know how to teach them. So the knowledge has to be on both sides. The people presently on retreat have known and studied with me for 12-13 years.
Q: So 3-year retreat depends not just on the connection with the lineage but with yourself, the Vajra Master?
LLR: Yes, you can use the term Vajra Master or Du B'n which means chief of the retreatants, head of the retreatants. But I don't identify with any title like that. I am not Du B'n; I am nobody. I just do my best.
Q: In glancing through Jamgon Kongtrul's retreat manual, it said even if you have just a flash of disrespect or doubt of the teacher, this can create great obstacles for one's retreat.
LLR: Definitely.
Q: What did he mean by that?
LLR: Well, the teacher is the one delivering, transmitting the teachings of the Buddha. These teachings can bring enlightenment. If one distrusts the teacher, one defiles the teachings you are receiving. If a doctor gives medicine to cure your illness and you don't listen how to administer this medicine, what to eat and not to eat while taking the medicine, if you ignore his instructions, the medicine meant to cure you could kill you. This is somewhat analogous to the retreatants' relationship with the teacher. The teachings are coming from the Buddha but one is receiving them from a human teacher. Three-year retreat follows the Vajrayana system and in the Vajrayana the teacher is the Buddha, the one who gives realization. So anything the teacher teaches must be received respectfully with confidence. Without this confi dence the teachings are poisoned and one will not be able to accomplish what one wishes to accomplish.
Q: One thing that seems to awe people who hear about 3-year retreat is the rigorous routine retreatants experience. For example, getting up at 3:00 a.m., and sleeping sitting up. Do people get used to these practices?
LLR: The physical obstacles are not so difficult for people. After one week people have no problem with fewer hours of sleep. After several weeks the pain of sitting cross legged is overcome. The physical obstacles are not the problem; physical problems we can control. Mental problems are more difficult to control. It is very difficult to discipline the mind. No matter how much discipline you have, when a thought comes you have no power to stop it, unless you can employ very powerful effective techniques to cut off those thoughts.
Q: Are these techniques only available to people on 3-year retreat?
LLR: People outside 3-year retreat have no time to employ these techniques. First of all you have to tame your mind, make your mind soft and gentle, and then you can utilize more active techniques. Without this taming of the mind the techniques are not useful, and could even bring lots of difficulties. It is not so much that people outside 3-year retreat cannot learn or be given these techniques it is just they have no time to apply them. They have to make a living, there are lots of distractions, and this type of distracted mind is not good for the pr ofound teachings you learn in 3-year retreat. Also during 3-year retreat the teachings are given in sequence, not all at once. When one teaching is complete another is introduced.
Q: What kind of obstacles are faced by people on 3-year retreat?
LLR: At the beginning they face the obstacles of being away for the first time from the samsaric world. When one is on 3-year retreat one is really cut off from samsara which at first makes people uneasy, and depressed. But actually by experiencing these emotions one learns more, one is taught more, and then gradually one set tles down.
Q: So the afflictions are helpful. But how do you use them?
LLR: Outside 3-year retreat these afflictions make one more afflicted. But in 3-year retreat the afflictions deepen our understanding of the teachings because one has time to consider the afflictions, watch them carefully.
Q: What if someone on 3-year retreat is completely overcome by negative emotions? Although they do their best to transform these emotions, they feel compelled to leave 3-year retreat, to give up. Would you advise them to leave?
LLR: If he or she has Karma with 3-year retreat the situation as you describe it may not occur. But even if the karma is there, many obstacles may arise. I will examine that person and say, "Don't worry about it. Just practice. It's okay," and use some skill to comfort them and make them do better. If they have karma with me and I have karma with them they will change their outlook and be cured. If he or she has no karma in the first place, they will never enter (3-year retreat). For exampl e I have two students who two or three times now have attempted and failed to go into 3-year retreat. They are close disciples and very devoted, but karma for 3-year retreat is not there.
Q: In talking about these results...when I am around you, Rinpoche, for example, I am amazed by the breadth of your activity, how much you accomplish even in an ordinary sense -- how many people you see, how many people are drawn to you for help. Is this the kind of result we are talking about? What is the result -- the aim of the 3-year retreat?
LLR: I think the aim is to escape from samsaric suffering, to cut off the causes of suffering, the root of suffering, to attain full awakening. When you have rooted out the causes of suffering and attained full awakening naturally, spontaneously benefit comes for sentient beings. So the aim is two fold: (1) to free ourselves from the causes of suffering, and achieve full awakening, (2) to free all sentient beings from suffering so they have everlasting happiness. This is the aim generally of Mahayana Buddhism and particularly the teacher should have this attitude. This is wh at I teach.
Q: Before going on 3-year retreat people must have completed Ngondro, and yet is it true that they begin these practices again from scratch after they go in?
LLR: For the first seven days they do the Vajrakilya practice to remove the obstacles from the path. Then they go to Ngondro practice -- normal preliminary practice: prostration, Vajrasattva mantra, Mandala offering, and Guru Yoga for six months. After that, particular to this lineage, they do Milarepa guru yoga practice for a month. After that, Seven Point Mind Training for one month, then Calm Abiding practice, and Insight practice, and then they go to the Four Deities practice, and so on.
Q: All of this is taught in Tibetan, all the texts are in Tibetan?
LLR: It has to be Tibetan. There are no translations.
Q: So in order to participate in 3-year retreat you have to have a good reading and writing knowledge of Tibetan?
LLR: It is very helpful if you are ready for it -- reading, writing and understanding Tibetan is very helpful.
Q: So if you don't have this knowledge...?
LLR: You will miss many things.
Q: Are there still whispered transmissions?
LLR: Although whispered transmissions are now written down those who can receive them must still be chosen. The teacher has to know the student is ready to receive them. So it is not the student's decision. These whispered transmissions are still very secret. Recently, for example, we gave an empowerment to 15-20 people. Certainly if this teaching had been open to the public thousands would have attended but it was limited to a select group of students we knew well who may go into 3-year retreat in the future.
Q: Are you speaking of the Five Golden Dharmas?
LLR: Yes.
Q: What is the significance of these Five Golden Dharmas to the 3-year retreat?
LLR: The Five Golden Dharmas are the main body of the Shangpa/Kagyu lineage transmission. They express the Shangpa/Kagyu practice in five different categories which together create the image of a tree. So the root of the Shangpa/Kagyu practice is the Six Yogas of Niguma: 1. heat yoga, 2. Illusory yoga, 3. dream yoga, 4. clear-light yoga, 5. Bardo, and 6. Powa. The trunk of the tree is Mahamudra. This Mahamudra practice is called "Chag-chen Ghau-ma," the "Mahamudra of Amulet."
Q: Why is it called Mahamudra of Amulet?
LLR: During Kungpo Naljor's time the Indian people were very concerned that their scriptures were being stolen and smuggled out of India into Tibet. They were very possessive and jealously guarded them. Knowing this Kungpo Naljor wrote the Mahamudra teachings on a leaf of the Bodhi tree and put it in his blessing box, his amulet, which he carried past the border guards into Tibet. This is why we call it the Mahamudra of Amulet (blessing box). The branches are referred to as "carrying the three into the path." The three being: carrying the guru as path, carrying the deit ies as path, carrying the afflictions as path. The flowers of the tree are red and white ones who enjoy space (Red and White Dakinis). The fruit of the tree is the result being the attainment of deathlessness and birthlessness.
LLR: In my time with Kalu Rinpoche one received the Five Golden Dharmas in sequence; first one, then the others. But when Bokar Rinpoche came to our retreatland in July 1996, I asked him to give them all at once. These empowerments require learned assistants, and it would have been very difficult for me alone to give them without this skilled help. Since Bokar Rinpoche was traveling with several lamas, they were able to assist him with these very complicated empowerments.
Q: Why are they called the Five Golden Dharmas? Why Golden?
LLR: Khungpo Naljor brought gold from Tibet which he offered to his teacher. So now it is traditional for students receiving these empowerments to give a small piece of gold. But when we received these teachings from Kalu Rinpoche we did not eve n have food to eat, much less gold, so Rinpoche gave us a piece of gold to give back to him as a symbol. This is what happened when I received the Five Golden Dharmas. Western students are more fortunate and most of them are able to make a small offering of gold--this is not necessary, but symbolically by giving the same offering as Kungpo Naljor they will gain the same realization.< P> Q: The Five Golden Dharmas came directly from Niguma?
LLR: Yes, directly from Niguma.
Q: Recently I spoke to one of your students who had entered 3-year retreat and what surprised him was how little leisure he had during the day -- less than 1/2 hour free time? Why is there so little free time during 3-year retreat? Why is the practice so intense?
LLR: Because this is the reason they are in 3-year retreat. Outside the world is intense and our involvement in that intensity causes suffering and pain. When you realize you only have these 3 years you want to use every moment of this leisure in the proper way to lead you in the right direction. If you become lazy during th e retreat there is no benefit. You might as well be outside. So, in retreat every moment is consumed in positive activity. If you have a lot of free time you have time for confusion and negative activity.
Q: Does someone come around to see if you get up at 3:00 a.m.?
LLR: Actually, that's my responsibility! Not all the time, but once in awhile I check up on everyone.
Q: You have led lots of different people in 3-year retreats. Is there a difference between Americans, Europeans, or Asians?
LLR: Europeans and Americans are the same but students from Bhutan, Sikkim and Tibet are slightly different in that they have memorized most of the texts because it is their scripture, what they have grown up with. Most of them retain the rituals very well and it is easy for them. But for Europeans and Americans it is difficult because they have to learn the language and read scriptures and learn t he Mudras and chanting. All of these things together make it a bit more complicated than for the Tibetans or Sikkimese. Yet the Westerners have great intelligence and diligence and if they want to learn, they will learn thoroughly and precisely. Howeve r Western people are somewhat undisciplined in that they always sit in chairs, drive cars, drive when they could walk. In Tibet, Bhutan and Sikkim people walk miles and become used to physical hardships such as no electric light, no heaters, no air condi tioners. During my 3-year retreat we relied on a small candle for light, had no heat and no coolers. But, so what. When the weather is hot, it is hot, when it is cold you put on more clothes. Nothing more than that. Here people cannot live like that. They like electricity for heat and light, coolers and so on. Also, in Tibet and in Sikkim I never taught women.
Q: So women usually only have women teachers?
LLR: Usually there are women teachers for women and men teachers for men, and my experience in the East was teaching only monks. However, certainly men can teach women, and women can teach men. And when I began to teach women it was an amazing experience because I saw the different qualities men and women have.
Q: How different?
LLR: The women have great faith, devotion and intelligence. They learn more easily than men and teaching women is easier. They are very intelligent, diligent, and open. The men may be intelligent but they don't use their full intelligence at times.
Q: What does that mean, use their full intelligence?
LLR: They don't work as hard -- give 100%. They use their intelligence up to a point but don't put extra effort in. This is my experience, at least, with Western men. They also learn more slowly compared to women. The only weakness in women is when they experience emotion one has to counsel them -- use many skillful means to remove their emotion. The men, athough they don't have as much intelligence and diligence, never give up. This is my experience. The women at a certain point, even if a little problem arises, may say, "okay I can't do this." But when the teacher's advice is available to them they, without exception, will respond, "Oh, yes. Oh, okay. I get it. Thank you," and the problem is overcome. Of course six months later one may face the same situation. Not all men and women fit in these categories I have described. I am speaking of general observations.
Q: Why does the retreat have to be 3 years? Why not one year or two years?
LLR: If one can live 3 years, 3 months, 3 days, in a positive state with the mind not influenced by negativity, one is then purified enough to realize full enlightenment according to the tantric system. This is a complicated subject to discuss here today. There is a sequence of teachings that have to be completed before your question can fully be answered and understood.
Q: But what about stories where people experience instant enlightenment?
LLR: Oh, I see. These people who realize instant enlightenment have in a past life practiced much longer than 3 years. They may have lived their whole life in a mountain practicing so in this life they just have to come back to this body to finish and instantly are enlightened. By his/her karma with the past life guru, other karmic connections with the guru and disciple, his/her familiarity with the teachings -- all of these causes create instant enlightenment. So this does not mean that such and such a technique will bring enlightenment in an instant. The technique did not bring enlightenment. He/she was karmically ripened already.
Q: Is 3-year retreat the only means to enlightenment?
LLR: Well, there are many other ways to enlightenment. Milarepa took twelve years, Buddha took six years. We have 3 years through the blessings of Milarepa and the Buddha. So, yes there are other techniques besides the 3-year retreat. You can practice outside if you are ready for that. But if you don't go into 3-year retreat usually your worldly activities do not allow you to practice. In 3-year retreat you are committed. Everything settles down. You just have to c oncentrate on practice. If you are outside, today you go on retreat, tomorrow you come out because something happens. But people on 3-year retreat are committed. They can't come out. They are protected by their commitment.
Q: After some students read this they may feel, "I missed my precious opportunity to go on 3-year retreat. I must not be a worthy person." Is this the right attitude?
LLR: Not everyone who comes to Kagyu Droden Kunchab goes to 3-year retreat. They can still do good things which will help them on the path both in this life and the next life. Some people will want to go on 3-year retreat but conditions will not allow them to do so. I have had many students who have wanted to go on 3-year retreat for a long time but were not able to do so because of obstacles.
Q: It does sound as though if one is serious about practicing the Dharma one should think about going on 3-year retreat and work toward that goal -- that 3- year retreat is the best, the fastest and most useful technique in benefiting beings and reaching enlightenment?
LLR: In 3-year retreat one completes from beginning to end the whole vision of the lineage, the practice, what the lineage offers. Yet, just because a person doesn't plan to go on to University doesn't mean she shouldn't finish high school. So, similarly if someone were to say, "If you don't go to 3-year retreat why bother being Buddhist" -- that's nonsense. Even a little knowledge of the Buddha/Dharma teaches you how to live positively in the world.
Q: Is it possible to come to complete awakening and understanding while living in the world?
LLR: Many Mahasiddhas lived in the world. They were farmers, they were dice players, they grew figs. Through these activities, these pursuits, they became enlightened. The thing to remember is the action does not bring enlightenment. The view b rings enlightenment. Playing dice in an ordinary way does not bring enlightenment but the Mahasiddha who gained enlightenment playing dice had one-pointed, unwavering contemplation. When we see him we see a dice player; but we don't see inside, we don't see the yogi. So there are ways to become enlightened through ordinary activity. Some yogis sleep for twelve years, wake up and (Rinpoche snaps his fingers) are enlightened.
Q: So is enlightenment a true understanding of the dream like quality of existence?
LLR: Yes, that's the understanding, but you have to stay in that state of mind for twelve years, completely accustomed, completely habituated. Asleep, the state of the yogi's mind, was clear light. Staying for twelve years in clear light removed ignorance completely and when he came back to reality he became enlightened. But these are examples beyond the reach of ordinary people. Those yogis demonstrated enlightenment in one lifetime through simple actions, but that lifetime was a culmination of countless lifetimes of effort toward enlightenment. For those interested in the stories of the Mahasiddhas there is a book entitled, Buddha's Lions, The Lives of the Eighty-four Siddhas, Dharma publications. There is a saying which says, "A tiger can jump from mountain to mountain but if a dog tries to jump he will fall off the cliff and die." If you are a tiger you can jump; if you are a dog you should find a bridge to walk over. There are some like Milarepa who can practice alon e, outside of 3-year retreat, but most people need the protection of the commitment which is the 3-year retreat.
Q: What if one of your students said they want to go off on their own and practice for 3 years?
LLR: If I know them well enough I could trust them, yes. But if I don't know them then no. Karma is very important in relation to 3-year retreat. I have students who for 13 years worked hard and thought of nothing but 3-year retreat. They wanted to do it. I put all effort into making this happen for them as quickly as pos sible but I wasn't able to finish. But as soon as they left all the conditions for the 3-year retreat were accomplished immediately. This indicated there was some unfortunate karma.
Q: I remember Kalu Rinpoche speaking at length of the value of going on 3-year retreat, but he spoke of it very matter of factly like suggesting the value of going to Europe. For many of us it still feels like a huge undertaking, a huge commitment.
LLR: Yes, if the karma is not there it is a huge commitment, very scary. But if you have this karmic connection 3-year retreat will seem too short. Many people after completing 3-year retreat will do 6-year retreat, 9 years of retreat. In Canada there were many people who after completing one 3-year retreat went on to do more because in their last life they were mature enough, ripened enough, so in this life when the door opened they did not hesitate.
Q: Do you think in the future there will be a 3-year retreat American style, in English and a little bit easier?
LLR: (Rinpoche laughs) I'm afraid I'm not authorized to make it any easier for Americans. A great Tantric master came to teach an American audience comprised of people interested in Tantric Buddhism. He was scheduled to teach early in the day but he was not on time. The audience became quite angry, "I paid for these teachings -- so where is the teacher. This is unfair -- this shows no compassion, why should we have to wait." Yet all along the teacher was examining the audience to see if they had sufficient patience and devotion to receive these very rare and profound teachings. Finally he appeared and said to those assembled, "I am sorry, I hoped to offer you these basic tantric teachings which came from Milarepa who sacrificed and labored to receive them. Yet you could not wait patiently even 2 hours. Clearly you are not fortunate enough to receive them. So, I am sorry but I am leaving now."
LLR: We have many students who want teachings, but unfortunate karma prevents them from gaining them.
Q: That seems sad.
LLR: It is sad, but what can we do? It is karma. if you are sad it doesn't help. Better just enjoy whatever happens.
DBJ: Thank you very much, Rinpoche.
LLR: You are welcome.
This interview was given in August 1996. The interviewer was Deborah Price-Janke.